Posts by not a captive

god of the gaps arguments are simply not convincing, god is no more likely to be the correct gap filler than anything else, in any case where god is squeezed into a gap, we could easily just fill it with (for example) a committee of eternally existing physical lifeforms, god is no more plausible than they are as an explanation.

as for the arguments themselves:.

the cosmological argument = god of the gaps: we think (though we are not certain) that the universe had a beginning, it was probably the big bang, the big bang needed a cause.

not a captive

In a certain sense, parrot, even for those of us who call ourselves believers, we should allow--at least I do--that the whole bunch of Bible miracles can be written off as the least reliable arguments for God. Especially if you throw in the likelyhood of spurious additions, the accretions of biased theology and the slowest but most devastating effect of all--our customary/traditional attitudes. For the most part we have neither time nor resource to examine any of this fully. Really, who has?

Any, I mean ANY event in the Bible can be discounted. Why not-? people do all the time. What is easier to discount than the virgin birth? Who would really know? Joseph? Well--Mary would. Uh...No. What if there were a date rape drug back then--or she was subject to seizures. Who knows? Well, maybe not Mary either. But there is no reason for anyone to believe these stories. Moses and the Red Sea. The resurrection? It could all have been made up.

So I don't think the stories try to make an argument for God. But I believe the stories are very much true.

A Spanish proverb says:

Everyone judges the fair according to how it goes for him.

As this relates to faith we have either the most deeply cynical view of it or we have the most profound explanation of it.

You have your pocket picked? the fair was bad for you. You got cotton candy and won the prize? It was a good fair.

But one thing is sure: I can't tell the guy who had his pocket picketed he had a good time--even if I had the time of my life.

It might seem to be a draw except what happens to people, some people, is that with all the skepticism we can muster we something happensn our life that we cannot explain away. Even if we don't want to tell anyone for fear they will laugh.An when we have this unshakable conviction that-- they know that we know.

Even if it does involve ordinary elements (Mary did have a human baby after all--not a rhinoceros) the attending parts to the whole overwhelmingly convince us of a thoughtful, supernatural event. We end up in the aftermath trying to understand it. And we may not really understand it at all of course.

Even so, how often would you have to have such a thing occur to be convinced that the first event was genuine --and evidence of a vast intelligent power? Would you have to have someone else experience it with you? Maybe someone did experience it with you. They weren't likewise moved? Should that change your perception of a real event? Your conclusions might be different but the event was the same event. We can't change our perception of reality. That is cognizant dissonance after all. So crazy Bible stories don't make me laugh. They may not have some proper conclusions. But I am unable to discount the core of the story even when it is not clearly evident. Such a thing has happened to me.

Now , I am perfectly well aware that this doesn't change a thing for you, Parrot. In general, no one is very interested in stories unless they are already disposed to believe such things. This, either because they are credulous types who like stories or because they have had such things happen to them as well. But I know that most people would rather watch their dish water drain down than hear why I know God exists. So it's a draw.

The Bible preaches to the choir. Mostly, it was never meant to convince unbelievers to believe, in my opinion. But the story collection does become deeply relevant when you yourself have had a moment when you recognize your mustard seed of faith and claim it --and not even publically. then the Bible does speak in a personal way to you.

Your mustard seed moment might not be a huge thing either. But I'm a bigger skeptic than most and it took some convincing to get my attention. I have doubts about my own ability to perceive truth and fiction, real and unreal. And I am surrounded by quick-witted and better educated people who take me to task for my foolishness. My husband and my family for starters.

But God generously presented me with no arguments. We are inadequate to understand them anyway. Instead, I recognize in the Bible peoples trying to tell their stories of a Being they have met and don't know all that well. Until Jesus. The Jesus stories are the most wonderful and the most absurd --and the most. He told his stories. He called It Father and called us brothers and sisters. And he told us to trust it with our life. Mere argument cannot take anyone there.

I am ready for your laughter, Parrot.

24

Officially announced at meeting: I am an ex-parrot......

by not a captive in

jw
friends

i mailed my letter of disassociation three months ago.

no response.

i saw a friend(was once?

not a captive

Good morning, mkr--Yes, nailed to the perch no more.

Loz--We are indeed ex-parrots all-------yet oddly able to fly or at least move our wings a bit.

Mentallyfree--do I remember that you used to be an elder? Glad you are out too. Thanks for the congrats.

Back to packing--found a cash of old WT films last night. To the dumpster immediately.

One film made me think about Christians in the concentration camps. I had long said in the discussions that touched on those times--these were people following conscience more than the WTS. The "true religion' teaching hadn't poisoned the R&F who were still refered to as "Bible Students". The idea of personal faith instead of dogma was not so entrenched. I was always genuinely touched by the faith of one of the Kusserow boys facing death who said in his last letter: "Thou shall not kill. Did God write this for the trees?" I respect personal integrity. I hate that we were ultimately just parrots.----But no more.

120

Are there any decent arguments for God's existence which do not fall prey to the argument from ignorance fallacy? (i.e. God of the gaps)

by Psychotic Parrot in

jw
friends

god of the gaps arguments are simply not convincing, god is no more likely to be the correct gap filler than anything else, in any case where god is squeezed into a gap, we could easily just fill it with (for example) a committee of eternally existing physical lifeforms, god is no more plausible than they are as an explanation.

as for the arguments themselves:.

the cosmological argument = god of the gaps: we think (though we are not certain) that the universe had a beginning, it was probably the big bang, the big bang needed a cause.

not a captive

I knew better than to say anything here, parrot. I have only indecent observations on the existence of God, no arguments. I don't hear God arguing about his existence and so I don't think I have anything that would compel you.

I am remembering all I can of evidence and miracles that he was present at various times in Bible accounts--and what is astonishing is how often no one was moved by even a great event. Public or private.

I don't know what that means. But, then do you? Really?

7

About the Preaching Work

by Mad Sweeney in

i think it is intuitive to most of us that the preaching work is a collosal failure if the goal is to recruit new dubs.

it's been mentioned that the growth rate of other religions, even some that do pretty much no recruiting, is as high or higher than jws.

does anyone have a link to some data about religious growth rates either internationally or in the usa and how they compare to jws?.

not a captive

I bet that eases your conscience, mentally free.

I bear the responsiblity of some Iowa neighbors "learning the truth" and three getting baptized. They have had a bad time of it. Two still in, the marriage broken. They want to know how I am doing. I haven't told them the final word yet ----I'm out.

13

Update on my bible study - Current light is not always true!

by bohm in

last time at my bible study we talked about how critical a christian should be towards his/her religion, in what situations one should set his/her own doubts aside (like abraham, the israelities in the desert) and when one should stand up and leave (like a catholic who does not understand the trinity).

it was quite an interesting conversation.

he brought up romans 13:1-7 himself (the change in 'higher authorities') and i bit my tongue and did not mention the change in 1962 he knew of was actually a change back to a prior teaching.

not a captive

I say, bohm, nicely done.

The bottom line is this: once any gobble-d-gook hits print it's more holy than the Gospels. Every utterance, every phrase , no matter how incidental is enshrined as "food at the proper time". You have to believe it ...No wonder they don't supply more information on "generation" than "canoes in Canada"--it won't matter whether you understand the reasons for the change. You just have to believe it until further notice.

By the way --Abraham and Isaac? No knife on the mountain? That's not the way Gen.22 has it. What gives?

Maeve

24

Officially announced at meeting: I am an ex-parrot......

by not a captive in

jw
friends

i mailed my letter of disassociation three months ago.

no response.

i saw a friend(was once?

not a captive

O Tammy! Good night, so glad you stopped by before turning in.

You've been on some lively posts today. I was in the stands cheering you on, you gentle soul . We climbed on this board about the same time, I think. I'm glad our paths crossed, I won't lose touch . Gotta keep that internet!

24

Officially announced at meeting: I am an ex-parrot......

by not a captive in

jw
friends

i mailed my letter of disassociation three months ago.

no response.

i saw a friend(was once?

not a captive

Dear trueone--Most who operate w/o pills seem pretty much as you describe them. But, like some of us who left, mental health demanded either pills or change--maybe both. But so many could not find the confidence eithr in God or themselves to question what was going on . So they stay.

Dissed--Yes, a text. From a man that was a great mentor to my self and my kids for a long time. He has a young family yet. I have wondered if he thought that what went on was right. But they can't talk like we do on this board. We kick the stuffings out of an idea (sometimes each other--a leettle bit) then do what we will with it . Our conscience is our guide. But yes, a text. I really didn't think he would talk or write anything to tell the truth.

Good night, friends.

The conversations on the board will rush past my party post soon. But nothing really dies on the net. So maybe I am immortal after all.

24

Officially announced at meeting: I am an ex-parrot......

by not a captive in

jw
friends

i mailed my letter of disassociation three months ago.

no response.

i saw a friend(was once?

not a captive

Now that I look like my avatar....

Just kidding. The package stores had closed (drat!) So I pulled my back-firing old truck past the watchful cops on our college row of pubs to see if i could quaff--you know--drink a beer there. So, the very picture of dereliction I sat with my $2.50 Miller in a bottle. I am sure it was a photo op that the WTS would so loooved to have had. I had but one (so the police would have no cause).

I am 58 years old. I am starting over in a lot of ways.

I can't pass judgement on my own life. I don't use the word Jehovah any more, not because I don't believe there is God, but because I do. But that name is tied to the figure kept so far from every not-the-anointed like myself that I am reverting back to the more intimate god named God that I was just getting acquainted with when the WTBTS found me.

Now, of course, I was of legal age and cannot say that it was not of my own freee will that I got baptized. But what has so radicalized me about the WTS is how crooked they are in how they they represent themselves. And I am rapidly becoming a Christian more primitive than the WTS wanted me to be (obviously--They had to disfellowship me). I was not aware of the ways that religion can sterilize faith and reason in one fell swoop until I was a Witness for 20= years. They wooed us with their clever expose' of false religion all the while doing the biggest and baddest false religion job on us ever. Using the Bible. "God's Word".

I am grateful for this board.

I have risked being a fool. Maybe have been one.

I'm packing up my trips and traps. My youngest has graduated, is off to a distant city to work then to a distant college to take her life on. I am unemployed as of two weeks ago. I will resume life now with my more than eccentric husband on a no-so-romantically-rustic mountaintop farm in rural Arkansas. I'll be back where I first met God and continue the pleasure of living with him without religion. (NO, I don't mean that my husband is God! But my husband will be glad to live without religion too)

I am so glad I am out.

P.S. I hope I can keep my internet. I have it for a few more weeks. I promise to be foolish for as long as I can.